Rosenfeld Review Podcast

Transforming Language with AI with Peter van Dijck

In the latest episode of the Rosenfeld Review, Lou sits down with old friend Peter van Dijck, author of Information Architecture for Designers: Structuring Websites for Business Success, one of the first books ever written on Information Architecture. Peter is now a partner of Simply Put, a Colombian company that builds and designs useful AI Agents—including the soon-to-launch Rosenbot!
Peter offers insight into the world of AI. Having been one of the first to speak about IA, it is fascinating to hear what he now has to say about AI. Join Lou and Peter as they take you through the journey where language itself is transforming from design to technology.
 
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
An introduction to the Rosenbot, an AI bot that Peter’s company is developing for Rosenfeld Media
Some basic vocabulary for speaking about AI and ML so you “don’t feel like an idiot”
Mind-blowing truths about the potential of Generative AI’s language capabilities
How writing has transformed from a design to a technology and learn what that means for how we interact with the data
About the importance of highly curated information when training bots and the tricky balance that comes when you want to present less polished sources like unedited conversations
The importance of the human side of things
The biggest surprise that has come from working in the industry
 
Quick Reference Guide
[0:15] - Lou’s introduction of Peter Van Dijck 
[3:00] - AI on a basic level 
[4:59] - Generative AI’s language capabilities
[18:08] - How we interact with metadata and writing as a technology
[20:00] - How real-use cases make technology more exciting and instantaneous
[22:19] - Information about the new Designing With AI Conference 
[23:33] - Some of the jargon around AI and IA 
[24:16] - Introduction to Lou’s Chat Bot, the Rosen Bot
[24:39] - The importance of training bots on highly curated information
[28:34] - The tricky balance of curated and less polished content
[30:26] - The human side of things
[31:55] - Different interaction models
[37:58] - The biggest surprise working in the industry
[38:30] - A Gift For You
 
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Peter Van Dijck Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petervandijck/
Peter’s Company, Simply Put:     https://www.getsimplyput.ai/
Information Architecture for Designers: Structuring Websites for Business Success https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00YDJPPCM
The My Climate Journey Podcast: https://www.mcjcollective.com/media/podcast
Quotes from today’s episode:
"When you say it’s just predicting stuff, I think you’re underselling the real capability, because it is generating meaningful, meaningful content.”
“You know how we used to say writing is design? … well now we have writing as a technology.” 
“We can tell the thing, the machine, what we want. Before, the machine gave us options. It gave us an interface to interact with, gave us stuff to touch and buttons to click and a search box to enter something in, et cetera. Now we can ask it.” 
“ChatGPT came out, my kids’ school was on that within weeks… the real use cases come out and… they do not want to give up. Like, they will say things like, ‘yeah, my best buddy ChatGPT.’ It feels like when Google came out, but even better to something we saw.” 
“I was a little surprised by this. It started to pull out a lot more book content than it would pull out sessions in which people are discussing stuff. And we realized that the reason was, book content is already extremely highly edited. So every sentence in a book, every paragraph in a book, carries a ton of semantic meaning.” 
“We don’t know how a teacher wants to use ChatGPT until we have teachers using ChatGPT, and until they start getting a sense of the capabilities and start using it and start learning it.”
“Humans should just say what they want and the system should be good enough, smart enough… to give you what you want.” 
“We are conversational beings and the way we are reproducing that now with this new language technology that we have, like language as a technology, is super early steps, and there’s a lot to learn.”

Ethan Marcotte on the Tech Industry, Unions, and AI

In a time of massive layoffs across the tech industry, and with the inevitable advancement of AI, is it time for tech workers to organize — as in, unionize? I know, I know. You thought unions were for 1950’s factory workers. Not so. Ethan Marcotte, author You Deserve a Tech Union (and coiner of the term “responsive web design”) thinks it’s high time for tech workers to protect themselves by coming together and deciding what’s most important to them as a collective. 
Certainly tech workers don’t face the same kind of potential life-threatening working conditions of industrial America, but they still deserve a seat at the table when important decisions about their work are being discussed. With issues related to equality, transparency, workplace harassment, and how AI is shifting roles and affecting how work gets done, there’s a lot to talk about. 
Ethan will bring his perspective on tech workers and how they’re being impacted by AI to the upcoming Designing with AI virtual conference in June.  
 
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
What’s attractive about unionizing for tech workers of the 2020s
What tech workers would change if they could
About tech walkouts and unions that have already happened 
Helpful resources for starting conversations with coworkers
The potential relationship among AI, reskilling, and worker unions
 
Quick Reference Guide:
0:20 - Introduction of Ethan
3:35 - How Ethan became interested in the idea of tech unions
6:04 - “Weren’t unions for the manufacturing industry in the 1950s?”
9:32 - The things tech workers would change if they could
11:14 - Conversations among employees – are they safe? Are they protected?
13:28 - On organizing for the greater good of humanity
17:11 - Plug for Managing Priorities: How to Create Better Plans and Make Smarter Decisions  by Harry Max
19:06 - How we should feel about AI
22:36 - AI, reskilling, and when workers don’t want to leave mundane tasks behind
31:08 - Employees “voting with their feet” is costly for organizations
33:24 - How future workers may organize as it relates to AI
36:30 - Ethan’s gift for listeners
 
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Designing with AI virtual conference, June 4-5, 2024 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/events/futures/ 
You Deserve a Tech Union by Ethan Markcotte https://www.amazon.com/Deserve-Tech-Union-Ethan-Marcotte/dp/1952616603 
WorkerOrganizing.org https://workerorganizing.org/ 
Tech Workers Coalition https://techworkerscoalition.org/ 
TheFutureIsLikePie.com https://thefutureislikepie.com/ 
 
Quotes:
“The terms under which we work aren't dictated by the workers. They're dictated by management, by leadership, and they can change it anytime.”
“A union is a path to a contract.” 
“There's a rich history in labor law and in labor contracts around letting workers have a say in terms of how and when a technology can be used in the workplace.”
“There's always going to be a tension between what the business wants and what is maybe best for the people who work there.”
“I think you can have a union contract that does ultimately benefit the workers and in turn allows the company to remain competitive and allows them to have a workforce that they're investing in.”

AI as Infrastructure with Dan Hill

Dan Hill is the director of the Melbourne School of Design at the University of Melbourne, and author of Dark Matter and Trojan Horses: A Strategic Design Vocabulary and Designing Missions. And he’s the opening speaker at the inaugural Designing with AI conference, where he’ll be presenting “Designing for the Infrastructures of Everyday Life”. 
Like it or not, AI is a growing part of our infrastructure—not just the infrastructure of our phones, our computers, and the internet—but that of our physical world. It’s increasingly  used to support the very fundamental systems that maintain our cities, hospitals, utilities, and educational systems. On some levels, this is cause for concern. After all, we’ve seen other implementations of AI (think riding-sharing services) that have not lived up to their promise but have instead aggravated some of the problems they sought to address.
Dan is a big-picture guy with an ability to draw principles from history and other sectors. He understands that utilizing AI is inevitable. The challenge is recognizing the interconnectedness of our various systems and working together to build infrastructures that truly create better life experiences for all.  
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
- The many facets of infrastructures
- How AI is currently being used and how it might be used in the future to support our infrastructures
- Why ride-sharing is not exactly an AI model worth repeating
- Why the Japanese and Finnish models work well in those environments but aren’t necessarily transferable to more diverse cultures
- Why quality of life will only improve with a more holistic, integrated design approach
 
Quick Reference Guide
0:37 - Introduction of Dan
3:49 - AI as infrastructure
8:30 - How AI might be used to further support infrastructure systems
12:09 - Will the impact of AI actually make life better? 
18:59 - Plug for Managing Priorities by Harry Max. Get 15% off!
20:15 - The metaphor of designing looking through a lens and technology’s impact on the material world
26:16 - Helpful models – the Japanese and Finnish cultures
31:52 - Dan’s gift to the audience
 
 
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Dark Matter and Trojan Horses: A Strategic Design Vocabulary by Dan Hill https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Matter-Trojan-Horses-Vocabulary/dp/0992914639/ 
Managing Priorities: How to Create Better Plans and Make Smarter Decisions by Harry Max https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/managing-priorities/ 
Designing with AI Conference, June 4-5 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/events/futures/ 
Smoke and Ashes: Opium’s Hidden Histories by Amitav Ghosh  https://www.amazon.com/Smoke-Ashes-Opiums-Hidden-Histories/dp/0374602921 
Quotes:
“Those [infrastructures] are fundamentally important, but they're also not the point. And that's a really  tricky framing for us because when they're not the point, they're easy to defund or undercut or not think too carefully about.”
“[AI] is going to be a core infrastructure driving things that we absolutely rely on, and as a result, we need to take it seriously and think about it as a public  shared infrastructure.”
“We have to be aware that those scales are all connected and that the decisions you take from an individual point of view, of course, matter in the city or the environment. I know this is the biggest challenge we have as a species. We're not very good at that, but that is precisely what we need to be looking at with AI now, because unless we've got a meaningful conversation happening between those disciplines at all those different scales,  we will take that Uber/Lyft problem and multiply it a thousand fold.”

Reflection in Action with Jodi Forlizzi

Jodi Forlizzi has taken an unusual path to get where she is today. With an art degree from the University of Arts in Philadelphia, she began working as a technical illustrator at the University of Pennsylvania. Transitioning into UX design as the internet expanded, she pursued a Master's in Interaction Design at Carnegie Mellon University where she is now a professor. Jodi's work focuses on responsible AI and diversity in computer science. Her talk at the upcoming Designing with AI 2024 conference will explore the evolving role of AI in design processes and products.
Jodi distinguishes between "designing with AI" and "designing AI," arguing the importance of designers' involvement in the entire product development lifecycle. She highlights the challenges of AI innovation, such as data availability, value generation, customer adoption, and ethical considerations and emphasizes that designers have a place in all realms of AI development.
Jodi's interview offers a glimpse into the evolving landscape of AI-driven design and the pivotal role of designers in shaping its future. With a blend of historical context, personal anecdotes, and insights, she inspires designers of all stripes to embrace the challenges and opportunities presented by AI innovation.
 
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
How Jodi went from a Master of Fine Arts degree to working on responsible AI at Carnegie Mellon
Why designers are needed in all phases of AI development
How careers morph as technologies develop and become obsolete
Lessons from history and the “friendly vending machine”
Why solving for “Drunk Island” problems is usually more helpful than chasing a loftier issue
 
Quick Reference Guide
0:25 - Introducing Jodi
2:59 - On boundaries around innovating with AI
6:40 – 4 reasons AI models fail
8:07 – The role of designers and the challenge of starting the design process from the middle of the double diamond
11:49 - The role of bridge builders
14:48 - The morphing of careers due to the emergence and prevalence of AI
17:19 - Commercial break - Managing Priorities: How to Create Better Plans and Make Smarter Decisions by Harry Max
18:26 - AI as a design material
21:08 - Constraints and structure on AI as a design material
24:39 - Jodi’s gift for the audience
 
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Managing Priorities: How to Create Better Plans and Make Smarter Decisions by Harry Max https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/managing-priorities/ 
Designing with AI 2024, June 4-5 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/events/futures/ 
Friendly vending machines 
 
Quotes:
“When you think about innovation, you think about the development of the technology, which is typically done by technologists. But the innovation is where designers take it and make it into a viable desirable product.”
“Reflection in action is like the jazz player improvising and making new music, or the potter working with clay. And reflection on action is when we step back and critique what we've done and figure out what steps work.”
“There's a lots of opportunity for simple, robust AI to improve things that we need.”

Angry and Passionate about what AI means to Researchers with Tricia Wang

In the latest episode of the Rosenfeld Review, Lou sits down with social scientist Tricia Wang, coiner of the term “thick data,” and formerly a partner at  Sudden Compass. Tricia is passionate about research and AI. She envisions massively improved research outcomes and opportunities for researchers, but only if researchers take the lead in incorporating AI into their work. Rather than seeing themselves as “users” of AI tools, researchers must work as AI’s “shapers,” serving as its senior partner.
Tricia’s vision is to cease the fear-mongering surrounding the subject of AI and instead embrace the amazing opportunities for growth and better work by becoming active in the control of AI’s future. 
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
The truth about the potential for AI use in research and the gift that it actually is
The difference between a “user” and a “shaper” in the digital age
The importance of taking an active role in the development of AI in the future
How being an asset class dehumanizes us as people
 
Quick Reference Guide
[0:16] - Lou’s introduction of Tricia Wang
[2:52] - Tricia discusses our future and how we talk about AI
[3:49] - Thoughts on the narrative of fear-mongering we have in the West about AI
[5:47] - The relationship between humans and AI
[5:59] - A new framework: users vs shapers
[9:07] - The problem with taking on a passive role with a technology unlike anything we have ever seen
[11:06] - People who use AI successfully are active shapers
[15:33] - Info on Advancing Research 2024
[17:23] - How users, shapers, and AI affect the field of research
[20:42] - The existential question of what it really means to be a researcher
[31:28] - Tricia’s advice concerning using AI in research
[35:07] - Tricia’s gift for the audience
[38:34] - Tricia wants to hear from you
 
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Tricia Wang https://www.triciawang.com/
Sudden Compass https://www.suddencompass.com/
James Bridle, Ways of Being: Animals, Plants, Machines: The Search For A Planetary Intelligence  https://www.amazon.com/Ways-Being-Machines-Planetary-Intelligence/dp/0374601119
Brett Christopher, Rentier Capitalism: Who Owns the Economy, And Who Pays For It?
https://www.amazon.com/Rentier-Capitalism-Owns-Economy-Pays/dp/1788739728 
Advancing Research 2024 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-research/2024/ 
 
Quotes from today’s episode:
"We actually need a new framework for how we orientate ourselves towards technology and in particular AI, like we need entirely new framing and that framework will unlock the way we approach these tools with a different kind of mindset.” 
"It’s created this identity, this modern identity, that is unique to our period, our technological history of this moment, where we have the internet and the computer and a digital society where we’re able to live this parallel life where we’re not just physical beings, but we’re digital beings.” 
“In our digital humanity, we are not human beings. We are users.” 
"There’s a new identity emerging around people who are using AI who aren’t losing their humanity, and those people I call ‘shapers’."
"You are actually not empowered when you are a user interacting with AI, and that kind of identity puts us at a disadvantage because you’re passive and AI is not a finished product.”
"We have to reconnect back to what is the role of the researcher in the first place. Is it just to be a yes person and to do exactly as the company says, or are you there to represent the needs and desires of people, not of users?"
“My advice to you is just embrace AI tools and play and practice with as many as possible.”

Decoding Culture: A Lens for Research Breakthroughs with Neil Barrie

In the latest episode of the Rosenfeld Review, Lou sits down with Neil Barrie, the co-founder and CEO of TwentyFirstCenturyBrand, to delve into the intriguing intersection of brand building, culture, and user experience research. Neil, an outsider in the realm of user research, brings a fresh perspective from the world of brand research; you can hear more from him at the Advancing Research 2024 conference in New York City, March 25-26.
Neil emphasizes the need for researchers to adopt a cultural lens when designing product experiences. Drawing from his extensive experience working with influential brands like Airbnb, Bumble, Headspace, and others, Neil suggests that by understanding and leveraging wider cultural factors, researchers can break free from the incremental nature of product development and create more memorable, distinctive, and influential brands.
The conversation touches upon the "wind tunnel effect," where products and services, much like cars in the 90s, risk becoming efficient but less distinctive. Neil argues that by paying attention to cultural factors and experiences, researchers can uncover breakthroughs that go beyond the interchangeable norms of the industry.
Neil’s insights highlight the transformative potential of cultural understanding in user research, offering researchers a valuable lens to navigate the ever-evolving landscape of product experiences.
 
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
The importance of adopting a cultural lens in user research to achieve breakthroughs
The concept of the "wind tunnel effect" and its impact on product development
Examples from brands like Pinterest, showcasing the power of cultural understanding in shaping user experiences
The dialogue mapping technique for evaluating how brands communicate certain themes and how people perceive them
 
Quick Reference Guide
[0:11] - Lou’s introduction of Neil Barrie
[3:03] - A discussion on the wind tunnel effect in research
[4:24] - Frameworks for understanding culture
[5:41] - Examples from Pinterest
[11:29] - Plug for Advancing Research 2024
[13:23] - The tools of a brand strategy expert
[17:18] - One challenge, multiple perspectives
[19:29] - Reconciling disconnects in research
[22:00] - The qualities needed for this type of research
[24:13] - Neil’s gift for the audience
 
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Advancing Research 2024, New York City, March 25-27, 2024 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-research/2024/
A Colorful View From the Top – a book featuring candid interviews with luminaries of color who made it to the top in various fields. https://www.amazon.com/Colourful-View-Top-Twenty-One-Extraordinary/dp/1408715791/
The Deluge by Stephen Markley https://www.amazon.com/Audible-The-Deluge/dp/B0B4YTWP7K/
 
Quotes from today’s episode:
"We're all trying to make our products as useful and beloved as possible, but things can get quite incremental. To really be different and memorable, we need to pay attention to wider cultural factors."
"The wider cultural factors can lead to breakthroughs, just like in brand building. Dedicating attention to cultural experiences can result in great breakthroughs."
"The wind tunnel effect is when things end up being more efficient and better to use but also less distinctive and memorable."
"Cultural understanding can lead to breakthroughs that might not be prioritized if you're just looking at signals from a wide swath of users."
"Dialogue mapping helps uncover disconnects between how people talk about certain themes and how brands communicate them, leading to valuable insights."

The Evolution of User Research with Steve Portigal

Author, researcher, speaker, and frequent Rosenfeld Review guest Steve Portigal joins Lou for a chat on the state of the user research industry – where we’ve been, where we are, and where we’re headed. If the field of research was once a lonely desert, today it’s a jungle. It was once a field where researchers could get lost and forgotten. Today, the field is teaming with life—so much so that you could get eaten alive. 
Gleaning lessons from the past, Steve doesn’t want us to forget the desert. But he has no desire to return there. 
In his chat with Lou, they look back, and they look ahead. They discuss shifts in community and networking, and how research agencies are being replaced by in-house research teams.  Finally, the two discuss Steve’s role in the upcoming, in-person Advancing Research conference in Queens, New York. 
 
What you’ll learn from this episode:
How the world of user research has evolved over the last 25 years from a widely-respected industry expert
How the research industry has shifted from agency-based work to in-sourcing
About Steve’s work, career, and books
About the upcoming, in-person Advancing Research Conference 
About Steve’s role in past Advancing Research Conferences
 
Quick Reference Guide
[0:00:29] Introduction of Steve
[0:02:50] “Dog fooding”, preparation, and collaboration that happens before conferences
[0:09:30] Comparing the user research field and community now to how it was 25 years ago. 
[0:16:22] The evolution of networking, connections, and community
[0:23:09] Shifts and pivots Steve has seen over the last 25 years in the user research field
[0:30:32] Writing it down and moving on
[0:35:13] Plug for Advancing Research Conference, including Steve’s role
[0:36:27] Steve’s gift for listeners
 
Resources and links from today’s episode:
Steve Portigal’s Rosenfeld Media books  https://rosenfeldmedia.com/people/steve-portigal/ 
Advancing Research Conference (March 25-27) https://rosenfeldmedia.com/events/ 
Steve’s website  https://Portigal.com  
The Wok: Recipes and Techniques by J. Kenji Lopez-Alt
 
Quotes from today’s episode:
“The survival skills for the desert aren’t the same as the survival skills for the jungle.” 
“The threats and the opportunities and so on are different. I don’t want to forget, but I don’t want to go back.”

The Roots of Inclusion with Victor Udoewa

We hear a lot about diversity, equity, and inclusion, but you probably haven’t heard it like this. Nigerian-born Victor Udoewa, service design lead at the Centers for Disease Control's Office of Public Health Data, Surveillance, and Technology, brings a beautiful perspective that challenges current research methodologies. 
Victor introduces the notion of the pluriverse, emphasizing that people inhabit different worlds with unique ways of being and knowing. He draws attention to the diverse perspectives that shape people's beliefs and understanding, emphasizing the importance of acknowledging and bridging these gaps.
He also uses a tree as a metaphor, in which the roots are ways of being, the trunk ways of knowing, and the branches and leaves are methodologies and methods. The metaphor suggests that inclusive research should not just focus on the green parts of the tree but what’s underneath the surface, getting to the very roots of being.
Recognizing the limitations of mainstream research toolkits and critiquing methodologies grounded in Western ways of being, Victor proposes that truly inclusive research goes far beyond having diverse teams study diverse audiences.
This episode is just a taste of Victor’s talk at the upcoming in-person Advancing Research Conference, “Beyond Methods and Diversity: The Roots of Inclusion.” 
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
The Pluriverse Concept – the idea that the world comprises multiple realities, ways of being, and existences
Standpoint Theory – the idea that individuals at the bottom of a social hierarchy possess a knowledge that is inaccessible to those at higher levels
Victor’s Tree Metaphor – roots symbolize ways of being, the trunk represents ways of knowing, and branches and leaves denote methodologies and methods
Radical Participatory Research – allowing research to emerge organically from the ways of being of the community involved
 
Quick Reference Guide
0:10 - Meet Victor Udoewa
2:16 - About Victor’s talk at Advancing Research 
4:26 - The pluriverse and asymmetry of knowledge
11:20 - Social hierarchy, ways of being, and methodology
12:52 - The tree metaphor - getting to the roots
22:20 - Research starting with a way of being
26:47 - Cultural individualism on research
33:02 - Victor’s gift for listeners
 
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Songlines by Bruce Chatwin https://www.amazon.com/Songlines-Bruce-Chatwin/dp/0140094296 
Decolonizing Methodologies by Linda Tuhiwai Smith  https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/decolonizing-methodologies-9781786998125/ 
Advancing Research 2024 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-research/2024/ 
 
Quotes:
"Reality, or the world, is not one world,  a universe; in actuality, there's a pluriverse there. There are many worlds or ways of being or realities."
"In a social hierarchy, the people at the bottom have a knowledge advantage. They have a deeper understanding of the worlds of people at higher points in the hierarchy."
"We need better cross-world connections, cross-world conversations, cross-world relationships."
"Even the very research question you ask is affected by that system of values.”