Rosenfeld Review Podcast

Pain and Curiosity Precede Successful Design Systems Change with Dan Mall

While we’ve been developing design systems for years, we’re only just now learning how to create systems that are successful and sustainable. Dan Mall is the author of the soon-to-be released Design That Scales: Creating a Sustainable Design System Practice, which explores the cultural elements that contribute to sustainable design systems.
Not surprisingly, it’s usually pain that motivates change. In fact, companies occupying the number one spot in their respective markets usually have the least incentive to change. As the saying goes, “Number two tries harder.” But even in the most-ready-for-change scenarios, design systems sit, at best, at a third level of priority. Dan asserts that the challenge is to approach design systems as a byproduct of the products and features that bring customers value. Otherwise, design systems will always be on the backburner.
Dan and Lou discuss tricky topics around design systems:
- Designers’ fear of job loss to design systems.
- As we move toward sustainable design systems, who should make the decisions? Who does what and when?
- How to approach design systems in a sustainable way.
- The best way for product and systems teams to collaborate.
What you’ll learn from this episode:
- Why culture, rather than product maturity, will determine whether design systems are successful
- How to address fears of job loss as a result of design systems
- How to keep people motivated through a systems change
- How product and design teams can work together efficiently
- How design systems have changed over time
- The role of governance in systems change
- Why following precedent within your company will get you farther faster
Quick Reference Guide
[0:00:32] Introduction of Dan Mall and his book Design that Scales – Creating a Sustainable Design System Practice
[0:04:49] On reaching cultural alignment
[0:07:01] What prompts design systems change
[0:09:26] When jobs feel threatened
[0:12:21] Cultural signs and markers of design system success
[0:16:59] November 29th, 2023 – Design in Product Conference
[0:18:20] On governance and sustainability
[0:24:44] On collaboration between product and design teams
[0:27:33] The evolution of design systems for ICs
[0:30:35] Design Systems University
[0:32:38] Dan’s gift to listeners
Resources and links from today’s episode:
Design in Product Conference on November 29, 2023 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/design-in-product
Design Systems University https://designsystem.university/
The Useful School https://usefulschool.com

Creating Insights through Analysis and Synthesis with Steve Portigal

Believe it or not, Steve Portigal’s UX research classic Interviewing Users came out ten years ago, back in 2013. A few things about user research have changed since then, to put it mildly, so we at Rosenfeld did two things: we convinced Steve to write a second edition (coming out October 17), and to join us on the Rosenfeld Review to discuss all the things that have changed.
In addition to being an author, Steve is a user researcher, consultant, and teacher. He helps companies grow their businesses, culture, and brands by interviewing users. He also helps companies build more mature in-house research practices.
Having been on both sides of the interviewing process – as both interviewer and interviewee – Steve can empathize with both roles. Over the last decade, he has seen user research evolve from a focus on consumer products to company culture and supportive technologies in the B2B space.
Effective research, in addition to data gathering, involves analysis and synthesis. Steve defines analysis as breaking bigger things into smaller things and synthesis as putting what was broken down back together into a new framework, or insight. This is where the magic of research happens. A chapter dedicated to the art of analysis and synthesis is one of the profound additions to this latest edition of his book.
What you’ll learn from this episode:
- About Interviewing Users and what’s new in the second edition
- About Steve’s work as a researcher, author, and consultant and how his work has shifted over the last decade
- Changes in the research field and why most of us are researchers to one degree or another, even if it’s not in your title or job description
- How analysis and synthesis are different and why both are needed for insights
- About the “We already knew that” response many researchers get and what it really means
Quick Reference Guide
[0:00:19] Introduction of Steve Portigal
[0:04:30] Experience on both sides of the interview process
[0:08:06] Shifts in language and jargon Steve has noted over the last decade
[0:12:13] The evolution of user research – less with consumers and more within businesses or B2B
[0:15:10] Speculation on where the leading edge of user research will be – or perhaps more importantly, who will be doing it – in another 10 years
[0:19:02] Rosenfeld Media Communities
[0:21:17] What’s new in the 2nd Edition version of Interviewing Users – analysis, synthesis, and insights
[0:28:38] “We already knew that” phenomenon that researchers often encounter
[0:32:20] Steve’s gift for listeners
Resources and links from today’s episode:
Interviewing Users (2nd edition) by Steve Portigal https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/interviewing-users-second-edition/
Doorbells, Danger, and Dead Batteries: User Research War Stories by Steve Portigal https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/user-research-war-stories/
“How-to with John Wilson” on HBO https://www.hbo.com/how-to-with-john-wilson

Decentralizing Power through Design with Sahibzada Mayed and Lauren Lin

Sahibzada Mayed and Lauren Lin will be speakers at the upcoming DesignOps Summit on October 2-4, 2023. Their talk, “Cultivating Design Ecologies of Care, Community, and Collaboration,” will showcase the intersection of care-centeredness and design operations.
Lauren has wanted to be a designer since she was in third grade. What kind of designer? An “everything” designer! From a young age, she embraced the idea that “you can design anything” from fashion to environments to moods and feelings. Today she employs ethical research practices and co-design to shift power and amplify youth voices, design toys, and bring play into her work at Ideo Play Lab.
Mayed has a social service and social impact background. Through a community-oriented storytelling approach, they co-lead strategy and research at Cause and Affect, a relational design consultancy in Canada.
Lauren and Mayed’s partnership began with conversations and exploration about what they could do to shift power dynamics and create more cohesive and engaging designs for all. The biggest hindrance, say Lauren and Mayed, is power hierarchies. Design leaders need to critically think about social identities, institutional positions, and other complexities and dimensions. How power shows up in our practices is always shifting and changing, and decentralizing power has to be an ongoing and emergent process.
And it all starts with ideas and conversations. Mayed and Lauren have found that speculative design is a powerful way to reflect on the “now” and dream about what the future could look like. All real-world shifts begin with ideas, relationships, and conversations. These elements are at the heart of design.
What you’ll learn from this episode:
- About Lauren and Mayed’s backgrounds
- How their partnership came about
- About the talk titled “Cultivating Design Ecologies of Care, Community, and
- Collaboration” that they will deliver at October’s DesignOps Summit
- About power hierarchies in design and what design leaders can do to help decentralize power
- About the role and potential of speculative design
Quick Reference Guide
[0:00:19] Introduction of Sahibzada Mayed and Lauren Lin
[0:01:03] Mayed and Lauren’s backgrounds
[0:05:53] The working partnership between Mayed and Lauren
[0:08:45] Power hierarchies and design
[0:11:56] The DesignOps leader’s role
[0:15:26] Alternative means of engagement
[0:18:36] DesignOps Summit, October 2-6, 2023
[0:19:59] A care-centered approach to the future through establishing patterns
[0:24:37] Mayed and Lauren’s gifts for the audience
Resources and links from today’s episode:
Ideo Play Lab – https://ideoplaylab.com/
Cause + Affect – https://causeandaffect.com/
Planet Justice Textbook from Slow Factory – https://shop.slowfactory.earth/products/planet-justice-textbook
“The Mind-Body Check for Radical Research” Google doc - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OBViDEMBh9lYndX-_gNI_5LNMPfMFhCA-Mek6M-VnGI/edit
DesignOps Assembly - https://www.designopsassembly.com/

A Proactive Approach to Inclusive Design with Zariah Cameron

Zariah Cameron is Co-Director of Community + Research and the founder of AEI – Advocate, Educate, Innovate Black Design. She will be a speaker at October’s DesignOps Summit on streamlining an inclusive design practice.
Many companies and corporations have good intentions when it comes to inclusive design. But too often that’s where things both start and stop. Zariah helps companies operationalize their inclusive design principles and ideals by looking at design from all angles and instilling effective processes.
When exploring ideals of equity and inclusivity, many confuse inclusivity with accessibility. Accessibility is a fine place to start, but it’s just the beginning. Accessibility tends to be passive while inclusivity is active. Inclusive design proactively seeks out the marginalized, the underserved, and minority groups. It doesn’t make assumptions but seeks input, feedback, and follow-through.
For many companies, the most effective way to pursue inclusive design is to work with grassroots organizations. Partnering with such organizations provides corporations access to a diverse pool of participants. It’s a process of co-creation and involves a long-haul-relationship mentality.
Zariah mentions a variety of organizations that design teams could partner with to access diverse talent:
Creative Reaction Lab
Pause and Effect
Aroko Cooperative – seeking equity, liberation, community healing, and ecocentricy
What you’ll learn from this episode:
About Zariah’s talk at the upcoming October 2024 DesignOps Summit
How inclusive design differs from accessibility
How companies can proactively partner with organizations to access a wide range of underserved and marginalized participants
Quick Reference Guide
[0:00:37] Introduction of Zariah
[0:02:04] Inclusive design
[0:04:11] An example of a principle that needs to be operationalized
[0:05:25] How to take a more operational approach to inclusive design
[0:08:04] Inclusivity is active, not passive. It’s also relational.
[0:14:18] Inclusivity is relational and communal
[0:15:03] More on the AEI organization
[0:17:24] Other work with HBCU students
[0:19:40] A reminder about the October 2-4 DesignOps Summit
[0:20:48] Organizations to partner with to advance inclusivity and equity
[0:24:21] Zariah’s gift for listeners
Resources and links from today’s episode:
Creative Reaction Lab - https://crxlab.org/
Pause and Effect - https://www.pauseandeffect.ca/
Aroko Cooperative - https://www.aroko.coop/
State of the Black Design Conference in March 2024 - https://www.thesobd.com/
DesignOps Assembly - https://www.designopsassembly.com/

Bringing Voices to the Table for DesignOps with Jay Bustamante

Jay Bustamante has always been about conserving time and resources by building tight processes to create efficiencies in his life and work. In all the jobs and positions he’s held, he would notice gaps, consult with stakeholders, find solutions, and fill those gaps. Eventually he learned there is a name for this type of work: DesignOps. Today Jay is a DesignOps leader and an experienced strategist at VMware. And he’ll be a speaker at the October 2023 DesignOps Summit.
When it comes to streamlining and building efficiencies, AI seems like a no-brainer, right? Not so fast. AI brings big expectations and can result in a lot of frustration if proper groundwork isn’t laid. DesignOps teams that proactively facilitate collaboration between engineers, business teams, end users, and other stakeholders can save time, money, and greatly increase the likelihood of a successful product that will reflect the company’s values.
In this episode, Jay and Lou explore the following concerning AI:
• Good data makes all the difference
• Why AI can easily reinforce existing biases
• Why case studies and knowing the most impactful need are crucial
• Setting proper expectations
• Why Design’s role is to slow things down and to make sure that the right people are invited to the conversation, that the right questions are asked, and that all voices are heard early in the process.
What you’ll learn from this episode:
• How Jay got where he is today
• How to slow down the development of AI solutions to avoid ethical and technical snafus
• Which voices need to be at the planning table
• How DesignOps can steer the design boat and keep everyone on the same page with the same goals
• How companies (even big ones like Amazon) can get tripped up when AI reinforces biases

Quick Reference Guide
[0:00:25] Introduction of Jay and the October 2-4 Design Ops Summit
[0:02:11] Jay’s professional journey into design ops
[0:05:36] Jay joined VMware to do strategy work and ended up doing design ops work
[0:07:35] AI in a design ops context
[0:10:32] An example from Amazon of AI-aided hiring gone wrong
[0:15:39] Design Ops Summit – October 2-4, 2023
[0:17:01] On being proactive with use cases and identifying red flags and slowing down
[0:22:13] On being careful with data
[0:25:43] On bringing voices together and being a facilitator
[0:28:09] Jay’s gift to listeners
Resources and links from today’s episode:
DesignOps Assembly - https://www.designopsassembly.com/
AI Fairness 360 by IBM - https://www.ibm.com/opensource/open/projects/ai-fairness-360/
Fairkit-Learn (Python)- https://pypi.org/project/fairkit-learn/
DesignOps Summit 2023 - https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designopssummit2023

Jenae Cohn on Designing for Learning

Jenae Cohn is executive director at the Center for Teaching and Learning at UC Berkeley and, along with Michael Greer, author of the new book Design for Learning: User Experience in Online Teaching and Learning. Jenae and Michael’s book helps designers create compelling educational content. Think of it as required reading for anyone designing an online course, webinar, training, or workshop.
Designing a platform intended to educate goes beyond traditional UX design.
Jenae’s book does the following:
• Looks at the science behind learning and articulates how to help someone be a learner
• Helps designers understand the complex array of needs that learners have and create more purposeful learning experiences
Learning is motivated by social interactions and emotions. In fact, the learning process is typically social, and most are motivated knowing that they’re not learning in isolation but in or for community. Designers should capitalize on these motivations.
Tips for making online learning more social:
• Take “temperature” checks throughout the course – for example, a poll or quiz
• Allow comments on shared artifacts and shared annotation
• Prompt discussions and assign roles if needed
• Remember that a webinar will not necessarily create a social experience
As designers get started on creating online instructional material, Jenae reminds them to be kind to themselves. After all, designing for learners is an iterative learning process. Also, it’s critical to create checkpoints and opportunities along the way to garner feedback. With the aid of Jenae and Michael’s book, we can depart from the days of dull online courses and make them truly vibrant spaces of growth.
What you’ll learn from this episode
• Why typical online learning platforms are so dull and what can be done differently to make them more engaging and compelling
• How instructional designers and UX designers can learn from one another
• How designers can make online learning more social
• How designers can know if they’re meeting their goals
Quick Reference Guide
[0:00:21] Introduction of Jenae Cohn
[0:01:41] Design for Learning – Why we need a UX book for learning/teaching products
[0:05:17] Why UX designers may be surprised by what they didn’t know about designing with learning in mind
[0:08:58] What instructional designers can learn from UX designers
[0:12:14] Hybrid environments in learning products
[0:15:07] DesignOps Summit – Oct 2-6, 2023 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designopssummit2023/
[0:16:13] Learning is social – how to help online learners stay engaged
[0:24:58] How a designer can determine if their learners have had a good outcome
[0:30:40] Advice for designers moving into the learning design space
[0:33:29] Jenae’s gift to listeners
Resources and links from today’s episode:
Design for Learning: User Experience in Online Teaching and Learning by Jenae Cohen and Michael Greer https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/design-for-learning/
The UX of Educational Technology Community https://www.uxedtech.com

Donna Lichaw on Leadership Superpowers and Kryptonite

Not too long ago, Donna Lichaw, author of The User’s Journey, was helping companies solve product problems by organizing the experience of a product or service into a narrative arc where the user is the hero.
Then she ran into a question that she couldn’t shake — a question that, once answered, would morph her business from product development to leadership development. The question unveiled a people problem rather than a product problem.
“We don’t have problems bringing products into the world. We have problems getting along with everyone, feeling good about our work, building team morale, dealing with internal fighting. We’ve been helping our customers be heroes. How can I be a hero?”
Over seven years of researching how to help leaders be heroes, she found inspiration in a variety of places, including Gestalt therapy, narrative therapy, and executive and somatic coaching.
Her conclusion can be found in her new book, The Leaders Journey: Transforming Your Leadership to Achieve the Extraordinary. Think of the book as a map for people to become the natural leaders they already are and can be through a process of radical acceptance that leads to real, lasting change. People grow into superhero leaders when they fully embrace themselves — strengths and weaknesses.
Donna’s approach to leadership is a refreshing departure from the typical advice of talk louder, take up more space, and listen more. This is a different — a journey that is unique to each individual.
• Discover your superpowers. When you’re not leveraging your superpowers at work, you’re not as powerful as you could be. When you contain your superpowers, you’ll feel sad, depressed, and restricted.
• Know your kryptonite too. When you understand the “why” behind your weaknesses, you’ll often find a superpower underneath. By embracing your quirks and appreciating how they serve you, you’ll open yourself to insights about how to move forward.
What you’ll learn from this episode:
• Why Donna felt compelled to transition her business into leadership coaching
• About the two books Donna has written for Rosenfeld Media
• Why one-size-fits-all leadership programs are a dead end
• How appreciating your weaknesses can lead to self-discovery and growth
Quick Reference Guide
[0:00:51] Introduction of Donna Lichaw and a brief summary of her book The User’s Journey
[0:02:23] About the origins of The Leader’s Journey: Transforming Your Leadership to Achieve the Extraordinary, Donna’s new book
[0:03:10] Donna recalls leading a workshop that raised an important question
[0:07:44] Looking for inspiration and resources to answer the question, “How can I be a hero?”
[0:11:24] Finding value in everything, yet recognizing what is less helpful
[0:13:57] Dealing with leadership stereotypes and churn
[0:19:10] Enterprise UX 2023
[0:21:15] All leaders have superpowers and kryptonite
[0:26:06] Leaning into your personal kryptonite
[0:30:25] How the adult film industry and literary smut fit into all of this
[0:35:06] Donna’s gift for listeners – access to her work!
Resources and links from today’s episode:
• Enterprise UX 2023 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/enterprise-ux-2023/
• Donna’s amazing toolkit https://www.donnalichaw.com/toolkit
• The Leader’s Journey: Transforming Your Leadership to Achieve the Extraordinary by Donna Lichaw https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/leaders-journey/
• The User’s Journey: Storymapping Products that People Love by Donna Lichaw https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/storymapping/

Boon Yew Chew on Systems Thinking as a Relational Tool

Boon Yew Chew is senior principal UX designer at Elsevier and an IxDA local leader and board alumn. He will be a speaker at the upcoming 2023 Enterprise UX Conference on June 6th and 7th, delivering a session on “Making Sense of Systems – and Using Systems to Make Sense of the Enterprise.”
Systems thinking can seem abstract and theoretical, but Boon reveals some unexpected ways that systems thinking can have a profound impact on individuals and relationships within organizations. Who knew that systems thinking could be an emotional intelligence tool?
Lou and Boon begin today’s episode by discussing the history of systems thinking and how it developed in the ‘40s and ‘50s, mostly within scientific communities, and grew into other fields and disciplines. It offered a new way of thinking about how things develop and change over time.
Boon goes on to describe his path into systems thinking and how, with its holistic, big-picture perspective, there is little room for blaming individuals when problems are viewed through a systems thinking lens. A system can give context to the behavior or clashes within an organization and alleviate frustration. Believe it or not, systems thinking can be a relationally lubricating tool.
Systems thinking can help us answer the following:
• Where do I fit?
• Where do the people I’m serving, working with, developing with, and creating for fit within the system?
• How is the organization I’m part of itself part of a bigger system?
A summary of Boon’s insights:
• Systems thinking helps us understand context, empathize, and understand other people and the context they work in
• Systems thinking provides a visual language that other people can learn from
• Language can help reveal not just problems, but how problems relate to each other even when they may not seem connected
• Systems thinking is a tool that can help with prioritization
What you’ll learn from this episode
The history of systems thinking, especially how it first developed within scientific communities
The differences between systems and design thinking
How systems thinking can reduce finger-pointing and relational conflict
Why it’s best to embrace messy differences as part of the process
How to bring systems thinking into the workplace without confusing or alienating others
Quick Reference Guide
[0:00:12] Introduction of Boon Yew Chew
[0:02:31] System thinking versus design thinking
[0:04:44] The history of systems thinking
[0:08:51] Being trained in one framework and finding it incomplete in the real world
[0:10:32] Boon explains how he navigated towards systems thinking
[0:16:12] When you feel like your goals are clashing with those of others in the organization
[0:19:08] On labels, understanding, reducing friction, and acceptance
[0:22:16] Enterprise UX 2023 is back!
[0:24:19] Boon’s Enterprise UX talk is titled “Making Sense of Systems and Using Systems to Make Sense of the Enterprise.” Applied aspects of how UX people are using systems thinking in enterprises
[0:27:17] Boon “eats his own dog food” and does “double work”
[0:27:52] An example of what success might look like
[0:31:45] A summary of how Boon uses systems thinking
[0:35:29] Boon’s gift for listeners
Resources and links from today’s episode:
• The Fifth Discipline: The Art and Practice of the Learning Organization by Peter Senge: https://www.amazon.com/Fifth-Discipline-Practice-Learning-Organization/dp/0385517254
• Enterprise UX 2023: https://rosenfeldmedia.com/enterprise-ux-2023/
• Systems Innovation Network, a community of systems practitioners run by systems practitioners: https://www.systemsinnovation.network/