Rosenfeld Review Podcast

Rock Climbing and Security UX

Just as a rock climber meticulously checks their gear and follows strict safety protocols to navigate treacherous heights, security UX professionals must also anticipate risks and design safeguards to ensure a smooth and safe journey for users in a digital landscape. In Lou’s interview with Heidi Trost, author of Human-Centered Security: How to Design Systems that are Both Safe and Usable, Heidi highlights the critical safety protocols climbers and belayers follow, which mirror the precautions needed in system design to mitigate human error and anxiety. This analogy sets the stage for a broader discussion on security user experience challenges.
Heidi stresses the necessity of cross-disciplinary collaboration, especially when dealing with sensitive data like personally identifiable information (PII) and electronic protected health information (EPHI). She points out how involving legal and security teams early can streamline projects and improve outcomes. Designers, as facilitators, must bridge the gap between complex security concepts and user comprehension. Heidi’s book helps them do this by using personas to understand how the dynamic between users, security UX, and threat actors shapes. 
Lou and Heidi’s conversation explores the evolution of multi-factor authentication (MFA) and its unintended consequences. What started as a simple 6-digit code morphed into a troublesome fatigue for users. Heidi underscores the importance of iterative design to adapt to these evolving challenges, likening the chaos of security interactions to a relentless ping-pong match.
As they look ahead, Louis and Heidi discuss the rapid evolution of AI in security contexts, emphasizing the balance between technological advancement and user protection. With AI assistants poised to know more about individuals than ever, designers must remain vigilant to prevent potential misuse. Their conversation is an invitation for professionals to rethink how they approach security UX and design, encouraging a proactive stance in this ever-changing landscape. 
 
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
The Importance of Safety Protocols: Just as climbers rely on safety checks, security UX requires robust protocols to protect users from potential threats.
Cross-Disciplinary Collaboration: The value of involving legal, privacy, and security teams early in the design process to streamline project timelines and enhance security measures.
User Dynamics: Insights into the complex relationships between users, security measures, and threat actors, and how these dynamics affect user trust and experience.
Iterative Design in Security: The necessity of adapting security measures, such as multi-factor authentication, based on user feedback and evolving threats to avoid fatigue and exploitation.
The security threats of AI: The challenges and considerations of integrating AI technologies in security systems, focusing on the need for vigilance to prevent misuse and ensure user protection.
The Role of Designers as Facilitators: How designers can bridge the gap between complex security concepts and user comprehension, fostering better communication and understanding in security UX.
Quick Reference Guide:
0:25 - Meet Heidi and get a rock climbing primer
5:55 - Emerging protocols in the security space
8:20 - The designer’s role in security
10:13 - Other “roles” - the user, the security user experience, the threat actor
15:09 - Designers as translators, conversation facilitators, and advocates
17:22 - Rosenverse – why you need it
19:44 - Security UX vs other types of UX
22:38 - The threat actor
 26:06 - Changes and threats with AI
31:59 - Heidi’s gift for listeners
 
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Human-Centered Security: How to Design Systems that are Both Safe and Usable by Heidi Trost
Start at the End by Matt Wallaert https://www.amazon.com/Start-End-Products-Create-Change/dp/0525534423 
Matt Wallaert on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2jGPUntrvxMl6t-H-t2isA  and LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattwallaert/ 
 
Quotes:
“People are people, and people forget things.”
“UX teams and development teams now have learned the hard way that it's much easier to involve these cross-disciplinary teams from the very beginning, so they don't stop your projects.”
“When teams are brought together, they come up with better, more effective solutions that are both secure and usable.”
“Humans are humans, including security people.”
“UX designers need to understand what you’re protecting and where things could go wrong.”

Middleware in Medicine with Carol Massa

Imagine being the service design lead of a healthcare network of 88,000 patients. Your team consists of five people. Sounds daunting, doesn’t it? This is the work that Carol Massa does every day at Northwell Health, New York's largest healthcare network. She brings her wisdom and experience not only to this episode of the Rosenfeld Review, but to the inaugural Advancing Service Design Conference on December 3-4, 2024. 
Starting as a design student at SCAD, Carol’s career path has taken her to management consulting and now to her pivotal position at Northwell’s Enterprise Digital Service division.
Carol discusses her team's unique approach to service design, acting as translators of human insights for digital services. Her team’s work involves transforming research and data into actionable insights, creating playbooks, and facilitating collaboration across various departments. The focus is on enhancing patient and clinician experiences by streamlining administrative tasks through innovative digital tools.
Throughout the conversation, Carol highlights the importance of building relationships and humanizing interactions. She shares insights on using familiar frameworks to engage clinicians and bridge gaps in communication, ensuring that all stakeholders understand the shared goals of improving patient care.
 
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
The Role of Service Design in Healthcare: Understanding how service design can improve patient and clinician experiences within large healthcare systems like Northwell Health
Collaboration Across Disciplines: How a small service design team collaborates with various departments and stakeholders, including clinicians, engineers, and business strategists, to enhance service delivery
Translating Insights into Action: Techniques for translating complex data and human insights into actionable strategies and digital tools that address specific needs
Humanizing Interactions: The importance of building personal relationships and fostering open communication to bridge gaps
Prototyping and Testing Ideas: How rapid prototyping and testing can be used to validate ideas and improve processes, ensuring that new tools and services effectively meet user needs.
Adapting Existing Frameworks: Creative approaches to leveraging existing frameworks (like problems, goals, and tasks) in a way that resonates with different audiences, particularly in translating technical language for clinicians.
 
Quick Reference Guide:
0:00 - Meet Carol
2:02 - Service design at Northwell
7:25 - The makeup of the service design team
9:49 - The operational tools and documentation the team uses
13:46 - An example of incorporating and automating a new operational process
17:36 - Why you need the Rosenverse
20:04 - Action-driven problems, goals, and tasks
24:35 - Breaking into established systems
29:02 - Carol’s gift for listeners 
 
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Advancing Service Design (inaugural conference) https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-service-design/ 
Everyday Astronaut https://www.youtube.com/everydayastronaut 
Quotes:
“We serve almost as a shield for translating human insights and making sure we find ways to communicate that for a technological purpose.”
“Think of us as catching all the unique things or the squishy things that don't make sense in a company. We're the ones trying to make sense of it.”

Systems Provocateur with Dr. Luke Roberts

“Systems are very good at being resilient,” and “Systems are very good at dehumanizing,” are sentiments that anyone who has worked in organizational transformation or systems change can appreciate. Luke Roberts is the COO and co-founder of HighFive and a speaker at the upcoming Advancing Service Design Conference.  As a self-proclaimed "systems provocateur," Luke emphasizes the importance of understanding the underlying dynamics of any system, whether it’s in education, healthcare, or corporate environments. He and Lou discuss the intricacies of how systems operate and the challenges faced when attempting to provoke meaningful transformation, often drawing on relatable insights from Luke’s work within education systems.
One of the standout insights from the conversation is the vital role of time in enacting change. Luke argues that significant systems change requires a long-term commitment, with research indicating that anything less than three years typically fails to yield lasting results. This understanding is crucial, especially when organizations often seek quick wins that can lead to a cycle of temporary fixes without addressing deeper issues.
Ultimately, our discussion reveals that provoking change is not just about identifying problems or changing individuals; it's about creating a collective vision and investing the time and energy required to realize it. As we navigate complex systems across various sectors, embracing the challenge of systems change can lead to meaningful and sustainable transformation.
 
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
The Nature of Systems Change: Understanding that systems are complex and often resistant to change, requiring a nuanced approach to provoke transformation.
The Importance of Time: Recognizing that meaningful systems change typically takes at least three years, challenging the desire for quick wins and highlighting the need for long-term commitment.
Energy Dynamics in Systems: Exploring how the flow of information and attention affects change efforts, and how misdirection can stall progress.
Collaboration Across Stakeholders: The necessity of fostering collaboration among all participants—whether in education, healthcare, or corporate environments—to create a shared vision for change.
Provocation as a Tool for Change: Learning how to challenge existing norms and behaviors within a system without blaming individuals, thereby encouraging open dialogue and reflection.
Practical Examples and Insights: Gaining insights from real-world examples, such as the education system, to illustrate how systemic issues can perpetuate negative outcomes and the strategies needed to address them.
 
Quick Reference Guide:
0:14 - Meet Luke
2:40 - An example of change at a system level - bullying in schools
5:50 - Helpful frameworks - mapping and metaphors
9:06 - Why training individuals is not a long-term solution
14:00 - The window of change
18:13 - 5 reasons to use the Rosenverse
20:28 -  Provoking systems
24:58 - Flow of energy
28:49 - Luke’s gift for listeners 
 
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Advancing Service Design - December 3-4, 2024 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-service-design/
The Grasshopper: Games, Life, and Utopia by Bernard Suits https://www.amazon.com/Grasshopper-Third-Games-Life-Utopia/dp/1554812151/
Leading Schools and Sustaining Innovation by Luke Roberts https://www.amazon.com/Leading-Schools-Sustaining-Innovation-Roberts/dp/1032015624/
 
Quotes:
“Systems get into rituals and routines that normalize types of behavior. And so you need to provoke them in some way to see what they're capable of doing differently.”
“Systems are very good at dehumanizing.”
“Training an individual is the fastest route to failure because either that individual gets a new thing that they have to deal with, or that individual leave eventually. For leaders to take a more systemic view of things, it's about really saying, how do we make sure the things that we value most are sustained over time?”
“Systems are very good at being resilient.”
“You have to have empathy for the individual, but you can have frustration with the system.”

Rewriting the Rules through Organizational Development with Amanda Woolley

“I’ve been asking myself the question, ‘Why are you doing that?’ since I was about four,” says Amanda Woolley. As an organizational development (OD) consultant and facilitator, she seems to have found the right profession. Amanda began her career with NHS England, eventually becoming the System Leadership Development Senior Manager before working as a consultant. Ironically, she initially rejected the notion that she was an “OD person,” not being entirely sure what the requirements were.
In Lou and Amanda’s discussion, she reflects on her journey into OD. She explains that OD focuses on helping teams step back and evaluate how they work together, addressing the complexities and “weirdness” that can emerge in workplace dynamics. They discuss the ideal environment for creating effective change in an organization, emphasizing the importance of neutrality, creativity, and ownership. 
Amanda shares a personal story about being a caregiver at a young age for her ill mother.  She reflects, “My best experiences in healthcare are when people have broken the rules.” Today, she brings stakeholders together so that procedures can be rewritten to make protocols efficient and effective for all involved—and she’ll bring her experience and OD perspective to her panel at Advancing Service Design 2024 (virtual, December 3-4). 
 
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
The purpose of Organizational Development and who typically does it
Common “weird” challenges organizations face
When and why organizations should bring in consultants, like OD specialists, to provide a neutral perspective and facilitate better communication and problem-solving
Amanda’s career path and the rich experiences that inform her work today
 
Quick Reference Guide:
0:14 - Meet Amanda
1:50 - Systems and organizational development share a focus on frameworks and language
5:08 - What is and who does organizational development?
6:24 - Being aware of what’s weird and doing something about it
9:43 - The triggers that expose the need for an organizational development specialist
14:21 - Creating space that invites change and creativity
17:15 - 5 things about the Rosenverse 
19:53 - How Amanda’s experience with the National Health Services in the UK has influenced her work today
27:27 - Amanda’s gift for listeners
 
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Advancing Service Design Conference - December 3-4, 2024 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-service-design/
Tomorrowmind: Thriving at Work with Resilience, Creativity, and Connection―Now and in an Uncertain Future by Martin Seligman and Gabriella Rosen Kellerman https://www.amazon.com/Tomorrowmind-Resilience-Creativity-Connection_Now-Uncertain/dp/1982159766
 
Quotes:
“I often talk about when things get weird because people are weird.”  
“If what you’re after is that thing, I’m really confused about why you’re doing that [other] thing.”
“I think there are just some people – and I'm one of them – that goes, no, I refuse to go to a meeting that was a waste of time or was unclear about what we were trying to get out of it.”
“My best experiences in healthcare are when people have broken the rules.”  
“That’s not really the process, but we can see it’s the right thing.”  
“The norm has been for it to not be designed. [The process] just kind of emerged.”
“What is the journey of somebody experiencing a need and getting the help that we have to offer, and how can we think more systemically about that, and more holistically about that?”
“The people who are working in these services know the answers. The wisdom is in that system about what is working and what isn't. And if we could just help the communication between those different people, then amazing things will happen.”

The Design Conductors with Rachel Posman and John Calhoun

What do music and DesignOps have in common? So much that Rachel Posman and John Calhoun use music as a framework for their new book, The Design Conductors: Your Essential Guide to Design Operations—the first book written about the subject. Both of the authors come from creative backgrounds (John as a musician, Rachel as a ballet dancer), and they describe how their personal experiences influenced their approach to the book and their work.
The music analogies are plenty. One example is the importance of orchestration in design operations, equating it to coordinating a team to work harmoniously, much like a conductor leading an orchestra. Rachel and John explain that design operations is a creative process, blending design and management, and that those creative aspects are often underestimated.
They highlight the maturing nature of design operations as a discipline, noting that the book fills a gap in resources for both newcomers and experienced professionals. The book is structured in two acts (another musical metaphor): the fundamentals of DesignOps, and the practical, tactical methods for building and scaling teams.
Rachel and John also discuss some common challenges in DesignOps, like making the invisible work visible and advocating for the value of the discipline. They stress the importance of "working loudly" to ensure that the contributions of design ops teams are recognized so that teams are properly resourced.
 
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
Why Rachel and John chose a musical metaphor to use in their book
Why Rachel and John decided to write the first book on Design Ops
How the book is formatted and why there is something for everyone
Why Rachel encourages her team to “work louder”
 
Quick Reference Guide:
0:24 - Introduction of Rachel and John
2:45 - Brining a music metaphor to design ops and highlighting the creativity within operations
6:53 - The design materials of operations
7:42 - Communication
9:40 - Building the plane while flying
11:06 - What the book covers and who it’s for
14:22 - 5 reasons you need the Rosenverse
17:14 - The journey readers can expect to take
21:07 - The big errors and challenges in design ops
23:34 - Ideas for working loud and being visible
27:06 - Gifts for listeners
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
The Design Conductors: Your Essential Guide to Design Operations by Rachel Posman and John Calhoun https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/design-operations/ 
99 Percent Invisible Podcast https://99percentinvisible.org/ 
Adam Grant https://adamgrant.net/ 
 
Quotes:
“We use the methods of designers. The only difference is the experiences that we're making are the experience of making. It's the processes, not the pixels. It's the people, not the product.”
“Design ops is a form of design.”
“Operations can be invisible, especially if it’s done well.”
“Visibility is the most vital thing to be focusing on. You can't expect executives and stakeholders to invest in and prioritize your team's efforts without making your work visible.”

Co-Creating Operating Models for Design Teams with Daniel Orbach

The best operating models for design orgs are mission-driven, evolving, and team-developed. Those criteria might seem daunting, but Daniel Orbach, Lou’s guest and a speaker at September’s DesignOps Summit, explains how he facilitates a dynamic culture of co-creating with his team at JP Morgan Chase. Daniel outlines his framework, one where the whole team is involved. It’s a dynamic, fluid process that builds teamwork, creates buy-in, and establishes a framework of periodic review, which encourages continual evolution.
Lou and Daniel discuss the impact of rituals and mission statements on both teams and individuals. They also explore the impact of a team’s operating models on the broader organization and how interactions with various teams can foster shared understanding within the broader context of the organization. 
 
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
How mission statements can inspire and drive operating models
The power of organic rituals and the unusual, unifying ritual of Daniel’s team at JP Morgan Chase
How cross-pollinating between teams can create a shared vocabulary and increase understanding
 
Quick Reference Guide:
2:36 - Introduction of Daniel
3:14 - Co-creating operating models with a team
4:33 - On mission and operating models
7:19 - Quarterly impact retrospectives
9:16 - Rituals and mission 
12:55 - Co-creating operating models
15:34 - Why you need the Rosenverse
18:39 - Operating models’ effects on broader organizations
21:00 - Shared vocabulary
23:07 - Cross-pollinating in organizations to facilitate shared understanding
25:05 - Operating models and the individual
28:09 - Daniel’s gift for the audience
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
DesignOps Summit
Boyd: The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War by John Coram https://www.amazon.com/Boyd-Fighter-Pilot-Who-Changed/dp/0316796883
Pieces of the Action by Vannevar Bush https://www.amazon.com/Pieces-Action-Vannevar-Bush/dp/1953953204 
 
Quotes:
“If we’re going to develop a healthy operating model, we need a team mission.” 
“The operating model isn’t static. It’s a contract, but it’s something that you continue to evolve over time.”
“Inspiration is a strong motivator. It provides clarity, especially in moments of adversity.”
“The rituals and ceremonies are a scaffolding for our culture.” 
“Openness as a leader, telling the team, ‘I'm open to evolving this. You also have a pen to write the story with me,’ is a huge lever you can pull to get the team bought in and get them owning the process.”
“You either happen to work or work happens to you. Having a strong personal operating model is the best defense against having work happen to you.”

Data-Driven Design with John Paul de Guzman

Being simultaneously data-driven and creative seems paradoxical. So does building statistics into the creative process. John Paul de Guzman has managed to do both. As the founder and chief creative of Frost Design and Consulting Group, and speaker at the upcoming Design Ops Summit, millions of Filipinos have been impacted by their work with major FinTech and telecom projects. 
Much of the UX/UI talent in the Philippines is self-taught, often struggling with the gap between academic training and industry expectations. To address this, JP developed a systematic approach to training and design processes.  
JP and Lou discuss how Frost has embraced data-driven design, which, contrary to the creative chaos one might expect, has led to more efficient workflows and better client outcomes. By integrating tools like Trello and Figma, and leveraging AI for task management, JP has significantly reduced administrative overhead. This approach allows designers to focus on their work rather than getting bogged down in busywork. They can track work in real-time, eliminating the need for status meetings and improving overall productivity—a win-win for both the team and their clients.
 
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
How JP and his team at Frost systematically integrated data into their creative processes
How JP addressed the talent gap in his company
The tools he uses to track workflows and achieve always-current status on projects
How probabilistic analysis helps predict project timelines and manage client expectations more accurately
How JP is integrating AP in the project-tracking process
 
Quick Reference Guide:
0:13 - Introduction of John Paul
2:16 - The path that got John Paul where he is today
5:18 - What it means to be data-driven
8:39 - Systematizing the data-driven design process by tracking workflows
11:58 - Mapping the workflow
16:01 - Break
18:45 - Tools for probabilistic analysis and managing time
24:11 - The level of granularity John Paul’s team tracks
25:56 - Handling aspects of work that are more conceptual and difficult to atomize
30:46 -  John Paul’s gift for listeners
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
DesignOps Summit 2024 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designops-summit/2024/ 
John Paul’s free boot camp for designers
 
Quotes:
“There’s a downside to having so much talent.” 
“When you add more people, quality starts to degrade.”
“It's because of the way we track this data and then use them to our benefit that we're able to understand not only the flow of the work but also the nuance of how the work is being done.”
“[Thanks to AI,] rather than tracking the work, we actually do the work.”
“The big advantage of this – nobody needs to ask what the status of the work is.”

Evaluating Designers with Ignacio Martinez

Giving feedback to subordinates can be just as stressful as receiving it. Yet evaluations are a critical component of retention, employer/employee expectations, and production in general. Having an evaluation framework and system in place creates efficiencies, fills voids, and benefits everyone on the team. Enter Ignacio Martinez, associate director at Grand Studio in Chicago. He’ll be delivering a talk at the Design Ops Summit in September, “Fair and Effective Designer Evaluation”.  
In this podcast episode, Ignacio and Lou explore the importance of a well-structured evaluation framework that highlights “glows and grows” in the areas of craft, quality, client interaction, and teamwork. Ignacio’s system, built on the very accessible Google Sheets, combines quantitative metrics with qualitative feedback to reduce bias and offer a comprehensive assessment of designers' performance. His framework allows for continuous feedback from peers, project directors, and supervisors. 
 
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
The principles and methodologies behind creating a fair and effective designer evaluation system
How contributions from peers, career managers, and directors can create a robust evaluation system
The importance of a structured framework with clear categories and traits such as craft, quality, client interaction, and teamwork.
The benefits of incorporating both quantitative metrics and qualitative feedback to minimize bias and provide comprehensive evaluations.
How to create a framework for continuous ongoing feedback from peers, project directors, and supervisors
How evaluation criteria may evolve based on internal priorities
 
Quick Reference Guide:
0:13 - Intro of Ignacio
3:54 - Evaluating designers then and now
6:32 - Gut feelings versus using a system
8:27 - Defining desired traits and levels
11:49 - The framework of the documentation
14:54 - The Rosenverse
17:34 - Who are the evaluators? Are they biased? Are they anonymous? 
21:33 - The frequency of evaluations 
22:36 - Consider what makes the business run
26:05 - The importance of transparency
26:51 - Ignacio’s gift for listeners
 
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Blurb of Ignacio’s “Fair and Effective Designer Evaluation” https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designops-summit/2024/sessions/fair-and-effective-designer-evaluation/ 
Design Ops Summit - September 23-25 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designops-summit/2024/
Rosenverse https://rosenfeldmedia.com/rosenverse/
Donald Glover https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2255973/
 
Quotes:
“We wanted to make sure that designers felt comfortable in how they were being evaluated.”
“We want a generalized designer with a lot of ambiguity, which is something that we deal with a lot, and be able to use a lot of different skill sets.”