Rosenfeld Review Podcast

From Academia to UX with Katie Hansen

What happens when an academic researcher trades a university lab for the fast-paced world of tech? Katie Hansen, Senior UX Research Manager at Thumbtack, shares her journey from studying unconscious bias at Princeton to leading research at companies like Etsy, Instagram, and Facebook. She breaks down the challenges of transitioning from academia—where studies take years—to industry, where research needs to drive business decisions quickly.
Katie dives into the power of survey experiments, explaining how they can uncover deep psychological insights and help teams prioritize what to A/B test. She also discusses the value of meta-analysis and literature reviews, showing how researchers can tap into existing knowledge to save time and uncover patterns.
With two talks lined up at Advancing Research 2025, Katie will explore experimental research techniques and the impact of meta-analysis in UX. She also shares her favorite research tools, the importance of repositories, and why Hidden Brain is a must-listen for anyone fascinated by human behavior.
If you’re looking to level up your research game and future-proof your career, don’t miss this conversation!
 
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
What to expect when transitioning from academic research to the business sector
How to Use Survey Experiments for Deep Insights
The power of existing research – both internal and external
Katie’s favorite tools for UX researchers
A strategy for future-proofing your research career
 
Quick Reference Guide:
0:00 - Katie’s journey into research
3:53 - The challenges of transitioning from an academic to a business setting, and how research is conducted in an academic setting versus a large business
8:25 - Designing with AI 2025 - June 10 & 11
9:44 - About Advancing Research 2025
11:03 - An overview of Experimental Research TEchniques for Deep Psychology-Driven Insights
13:02 - Research and experiments in business
16:46 - AB testing and Qualtrics 
17:39 - An overview of Finding the Unknown in the Known: Harnessing Meta-Analysis and Literature Review
20:01 - What is meta-analysis, anyway?
22:47 - Katie’s gift for listeners
 
 
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Advancing Research 2025 - March 11-13 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-research/2025/ 
Rosenverse discussion between Caroline Jarrett and Aaron Weigel https://rosenfeldmedia.com/sessions/have-fun-with-statistics/
Hidden Brain podcast https://hiddenbrain.org/ 
 
Quotes:
“ It's about being able to pursue questions that will have an impact on the business and the stakeholders around you versus ones that are just interesting to know.”
“ It's less about their questions and more about their goals and understanding what decisions they need to make, and then deriving the questions that need to be answered to inform those decisions.”

Destigmatizing Failure to Encourage Innovation with Dan Ward

Failure is often seen as something to avoid, but Dan Ward sees it as a gateway to innovation. Dan is a military technologist, author, USAF veteran, and innovation catalyst at MITRE Corporation, and he and Lou talk about the profound lessons failure can teach. Drawing from his book LIFT: Innovation Lessons From Flying Machines That ALMOST Worked and The People Who NEARLY Flew Them, Ward shares stories of pre-Wright brothers (more accurately pre-Wright siblings) aviation experiments that, despite ending in failure, laid the groundwork for modern flight. He explains how studying and learning from setbacks can drive innovation and problem-solving in any field.
Dan shares his innovation team's unique approach to failure: celebrating it with “failure cake.” This ritual helps his team process setbacks, learn from them, and destigmatize failure in a supportive environment. He also emphasizes the importance of storytelling, arguing that even the best ideas are meaningless if they can’t be communicated clearly. The conversation highlights how embracing failure and sharing its lessons are essential for growth, whether in aviation, design, or technology.
Mark your calendars! Lou announces that Dan will headline Rosenfeld Media’s first Failure Friday on February 7, 2025, where he’ll further discuss the failure cake practice. 
 
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
How studying failure can accelerate innovation and prevent repeated mistakes.
Insights from Dan Ward’s book Lift, exploring the untold stories of aviation failures before the Wright brothers' success.
The value of storytelling in technology and why clear communication is essential for impactful ideas.
How establishing rituals around failure encourages an atmosphere of innovation
 
Quick Reference Guide:
0:00 - Meet Dan Ward, an author and military technologist
3:19 - The stories of failed flights pre-Wright Siblings
8:56 - The scientific method vs alternative methods
12:36 - Failure stories make for good reading
16:04 - 5 reasons to use the Rosenverse
18:27 - The psychology behind speaking about failure
22:03 - Characteristics of a good failure story; and Failure Friday in the Rosenverse
24:13 - Failure cake
25:28 - Dan’s gift for the audience
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Fading the Spectrum https://www.instagram.com/fadingthespectrum/ 
LIFT: Innovation Lessons From Flying Machines That ALMOST Worked And The People Who NEARLY Flew Them by Dan Ward http://www.thedanward.com/lift/ 
TheDanWard.com https://www.thedanward.com/ 
 
Quotes:
“ The sooner you can face it, study it, name it, learn from it, the better off you'll be.”
“ If we're denying and ignoring our failures, guess what happens. We repeat them.”
“Studying failure is a great practice in any domain.”
“The best ideas in the world are worthless if you can’t express them clearly.”
“ It can be challenging to admit ignorance. It can be challenging to admit failure because that seems to undermine my credibility and my value as a professional in this field. But the good news is we do have an opportunity to flip that on its head without completely rewriting expert culture or getting rid of expert culture entirely.”
“A sign of a world-class professional is they admit when they are wrong.”
“Failure is when effort does not produce the desired result.”

A Designer Fighting Climate Change with Brandon Schauer

What keeps you up at night? For Brandon Schauer, it was climate change. In a stroke of genius, the former CEO of Adaptive Path decided to look for a role that would help him address his concerns about our planet. He ultimately transitioned to his current role as Senior Vice President of Climate Culture at Rare. 
Brandon has a big heart, and it can be felt in his conversation with Lou. They discuss his education and career path, highlighting his leadership role at Adaptive Path where the agency thrived by sharing knowledge and empowering new talent. As CEO, Brandon navigated business challenges and focused on building lasting client relationships and expanding the agency's impact. This experience eventually led to Adaptive Path's acquisition by Capital One, which marked a significant turning point in Brandon's career.
His transition to climate work was driven by a growing concern for the environment. After struggling to find a direct path connecting design and climate change, Brandon discovered a role at Rare, an organization focused on behavioral change to reduce U.S. carbon emissions. His team at Rare works to identify and promote lifestyle changes, such as how people eat, travel, and power their homes. 
Brandon also shares how his design background continues to influence his work at Rare, particularly in "behavior placement"—a method of subtly integrating eco-friendly choices into entertainment to normalize sustainable behaviors. He emphasizes the soft power designers hold, noting how they can integrate sustainability into their work, even if their roles aren’t explicitly focused on climate. By doing so, designers can influence corporate decisions and consumer behaviors, helping to create a shift toward more sustainable norms in everyday life.
 
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
About Brandon’s career path
The ideas behind Adaptive Path that propelled its success
How Brandon transitioned his focus to climate change
How designers can help the planet without changing careers
 
Quick Reference Guide:
0:21 - Introduction of Brandon
5:12 - Adaptive Path and how they attracted talent
10:09 - The founders of Adaptive Path receded, and the team became the focus
13:55 - Reflections on being the CEO
18:26 - 5 reasons to use the Rosenverse
21:04 - Brandon’s path to senior vice president of Climate Culture at Rare
27:09 - Using concepts from design to solve problems
29:59 - Designers impacting climate change 
34:50 - Dynamic norms
37:38 - Brandon’s gift for listeners
 
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Rare https://rare.org/ 
Follow Brandon on X https://twitter.com/brandonschauer 
Dr. Katherine Hayhoe on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/katharinehayhoe/ 
 
Quotes:
“Where we'll really scale is through  community and we'll really scale through sharing our ideas.”
“We’re about creating great human experiences, and the more of those we create, the better it gets.”
“We don’t want to do the most projects. We just want to affect the most positive change we can.” 
“Designers may not have the most control over the product, but design is rendering intent.” 
“There's a lot of opportunity for designers to not just change jobs but think about how they include issues of climate, issues of carbon emissions, issues of sustainability into the work they do every day.”
“Little decisions by designers have soft power that can have a really big impact over time.”

Envisioning and Creating New York City’s Next Park with Rosa Chang

Imagine transforming a forgotten, dark space beneath one of New York’s most iconic landmarks into a vibrant community hub—this is the ambitious vision behind Gotham Park. Facilitating the vision and creation of the space beneath the Brooklyn Bridge is Lou’s guest, Rosa Chang. She shares her dream of transforming the neglected nine-acre area into a community-driven park. Initially underutilized and uninviting, the space is now being reimagined as a vibrant public hub for diverse groups to gather and connect.
Rosa discusses the process of bringing her idea to the public, emphasizing the importance of listening to the community and allowing the vision to evolve through conversations. Rather than adhering to a rigid design from the start, she facilitates discussions with local stakeholders to ensure the park meets the needs of the people it serves. She highlights the significance of respecting the space's history while meeting contemporary needs.
Their conversation also touches on Gotham Park's early successes, including the opening of the first acre and the push to revive iconic spaces like the Brooklyn Banks skate park. Rosa's approach has been one of connection and collaboration, bridging gaps between individuals and organizations to create a public space that fosters unity. Listen and be inspired!
 
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
The Vision Behind Gotham Park – To transform nine acres of neglected space beneath the Brooklyn Bridge into a vibrant, accessible public park for the community.
The Role of Community Engagement – Discover how Rosa involved local residents and stakeholders in shaping the park, ensuring it meets the needs and desires of the people it’s meant to serve.
Overcoming Bureaucratic Challenges – Hear about the obstacles Rosa faced in navigating New York City’s bureaucracy and how she’s used persistence and creativity to overcome them.
The Power of Public Spaces – Understand the importance of creating public spaces that are inclusive, open, and accessible to all, and how these spaces can foster connection and community.
The Importance of Adaptability – Rosa’s flexible approach to the project allows the vision to evolve based on feedback and the changing needs of the community.
Rosa’s Challenge to Listeners – step outside your comfort zone and connect with someone new, embodying the spirit of Gotham Park in everyday life.
 
Quick Reference Guide:
0:00 - Meet Rosa
1:49 - The vision of Gotham Park
4:52 - Progress already made
7:59 - The vision 
10:55 - Rosa’s background
13:20 - Why you need the Rosenverse
15:34 - Visions past and present
19:58 - Conversation before renderings; the anchoring values
23:20 - More facilitator, less designer 
27:14 - Catching visions through history and renderings
31:41 - Rosa’s gift for listeners
 
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Gotham Park https://gothampark.org/ 
Rosa Chang New York Times article https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/27/nyregion/gotham-park-brooklyn-bridge-rosa-chang.html 
 
Quotes:
“Time matters. It’s critical.”
“These decisions aren’t made. They just happen. If people were focusing on them, they wouldn’t happen that way.” 
“A lot of times the decisions are made at such a high level.  that the impact on the local sort of granular level is not understood.”
“That's been the process for us – to shine a light on the problems but also present potential solutions so that we can break it down and just make that process easier.”
“I think part of the magic is not having that anchor but being open to the possibilities that you can't imagine.”
“The answer is not in any one person, but the answer is in all of them, the lives that are lived right here.”

Rock Climbing and Security UX

Just as a rock climber meticulously checks their gear and follows strict safety protocols to navigate treacherous heights, security UX professionals must also anticipate risks and design safeguards to ensure a smooth and safe journey for users in a digital landscape. In Lou’s interview with Heidi Trost, author of Human-Centered Security: How to Design Systems that are Both Safe and Usable, Heidi highlights the critical safety protocols climbers and belayers follow, which mirror the precautions needed in system design to mitigate human error and anxiety. This analogy sets the stage for a broader discussion on security user experience challenges.
Heidi stresses the necessity of cross-disciplinary collaboration, especially when dealing with sensitive data like personally identifiable information (PII) and electronic protected health information (EPHI). She points out how involving legal and security teams early can streamline projects and improve outcomes. Designers, as facilitators, must bridge the gap between complex security concepts and user comprehension. Heidi’s book helps them do this by using personas to understand how the dynamic between users, security UX, and threat actors shapes. 
Lou and Heidi’s conversation explores the evolution of multi-factor authentication (MFA) and its unintended consequences. What started as a simple 6-digit code morphed into a troublesome fatigue for users. Heidi underscores the importance of iterative design to adapt to these evolving challenges, likening the chaos of security interactions to a relentless ping-pong match.
As they look ahead, Louis and Heidi discuss the rapid evolution of AI in security contexts, emphasizing the balance between technological advancement and user protection. With AI assistants poised to know more about individuals than ever, designers must remain vigilant to prevent potential misuse. Their conversation is an invitation for professionals to rethink how they approach security UX and design, encouraging a proactive stance in this ever-changing landscape. 
 
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
The Importance of Safety Protocols: Just as climbers rely on safety checks, security UX requires robust protocols to protect users from potential threats.
Cross-Disciplinary Collaboration: The value of involving legal, privacy, and security teams early in the design process to streamline project timelines and enhance security measures.
User Dynamics: Insights into the complex relationships between users, security measures, and threat actors, and how these dynamics affect user trust and experience.
Iterative Design in Security: The necessity of adapting security measures, such as multi-factor authentication, based on user feedback and evolving threats to avoid fatigue and exploitation.
The security threats of AI: The challenges and considerations of integrating AI technologies in security systems, focusing on the need for vigilance to prevent misuse and ensure user protection.
The Role of Designers as Facilitators: How designers can bridge the gap between complex security concepts and user comprehension, fostering better communication and understanding in security UX.
Quick Reference Guide:
0:25 - Meet Heidi and get a rock climbing primer
5:55 - Emerging protocols in the security space
8:20 - The designer’s role in security
10:13 - Other “roles” - the user, the security user experience, the threat actor
15:09 - Designers as translators, conversation facilitators, and advocates
17:22 - Rosenverse – why you need it
19:44 - Security UX vs other types of UX
22:38 - The threat actor
 26:06 - Changes and threats with AI
31:59 - Heidi’s gift for listeners
 
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Human-Centered Security: How to Design Systems that are Both Safe and Usable by Heidi Trost
Start at the End by Matt Wallaert https://www.amazon.com/Start-End-Products-Create-Change/dp/0525534423 
Matt Wallaert on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2jGPUntrvxMl6t-H-t2isA  and LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattwallaert/ 
 
Quotes:
“People are people, and people forget things.”
“UX teams and development teams now have learned the hard way that it's much easier to involve these cross-disciplinary teams from the very beginning, so they don't stop your projects.”
“When teams are brought together, they come up with better, more effective solutions that are both secure and usable.”
“Humans are humans, including security people.”
“UX designers need to understand what you’re protecting and where things could go wrong.”

Middleware in Medicine with Carol Massa

Imagine being the service design lead of a healthcare network of 88,000 patients. Your team consists of five people. Sounds daunting, doesn’t it? This is the work that Carol Massa does every day at Northwell Health, New York's largest healthcare network. She brings her wisdom and experience not only to this episode of the Rosenfeld Review, but to the inaugural Advancing Service Design Conference on December 3-4, 2024. 
Starting as a design student at SCAD, Carol’s career path has taken her to management consulting and now to her pivotal position at Northwell’s Enterprise Digital Service division.
Carol discusses her team's unique approach to service design, acting as translators of human insights for digital services. Her team’s work involves transforming research and data into actionable insights, creating playbooks, and facilitating collaboration across various departments. The focus is on enhancing patient and clinician experiences by streamlining administrative tasks through innovative digital tools.
Throughout the conversation, Carol highlights the importance of building relationships and humanizing interactions. She shares insights on using familiar frameworks to engage clinicians and bridge gaps in communication, ensuring that all stakeholders understand the shared goals of improving patient care.
 
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
The Role of Service Design in Healthcare: Understanding how service design can improve patient and clinician experiences within large healthcare systems like Northwell Health
Collaboration Across Disciplines: How a small service design team collaborates with various departments and stakeholders, including clinicians, engineers, and business strategists, to enhance service delivery
Translating Insights into Action: Techniques for translating complex data and human insights into actionable strategies and digital tools that address specific needs
Humanizing Interactions: The importance of building personal relationships and fostering open communication to bridge gaps
Prototyping and Testing Ideas: How rapid prototyping and testing can be used to validate ideas and improve processes, ensuring that new tools and services effectively meet user needs.
Adapting Existing Frameworks: Creative approaches to leveraging existing frameworks (like problems, goals, and tasks) in a way that resonates with different audiences, particularly in translating technical language for clinicians.
 
Quick Reference Guide:
0:00 - Meet Carol
2:02 - Service design at Northwell
7:25 - The makeup of the service design team
9:49 - The operational tools and documentation the team uses
13:46 - An example of incorporating and automating a new operational process
17:36 - Why you need the Rosenverse
20:04 - Action-driven problems, goals, and tasks
24:35 - Breaking into established systems
29:02 - Carol’s gift for listeners 
 
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Advancing Service Design (inaugural conference) https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-service-design/ 
Everyday Astronaut https://www.youtube.com/everydayastronaut 
Quotes:
“We serve almost as a shield for translating human insights and making sure we find ways to communicate that for a technological purpose.”
“Think of us as catching all the unique things or the squishy things that don't make sense in a company. We're the ones trying to make sense of it.”

Systems Provocateur with Dr. Luke Roberts

“Systems are very good at being resilient,” and “Systems are very good at dehumanizing,” are sentiments that anyone who has worked in organizational transformation or systems change can appreciate. Luke Roberts is the COO and co-founder of HighFive and a speaker at the upcoming Advancing Service Design Conference.  As a self-proclaimed "systems provocateur," Luke emphasizes the importance of understanding the underlying dynamics of any system, whether it’s in education, healthcare, or corporate environments. He and Lou discuss the intricacies of how systems operate and the challenges faced when attempting to provoke meaningful transformation, often drawing on relatable insights from Luke’s work within education systems.
One of the standout insights from the conversation is the vital role of time in enacting change. Luke argues that significant systems change requires a long-term commitment, with research indicating that anything less than three years typically fails to yield lasting results. This understanding is crucial, especially when organizations often seek quick wins that can lead to a cycle of temporary fixes without addressing deeper issues.
Ultimately, our discussion reveals that provoking change is not just about identifying problems or changing individuals; it's about creating a collective vision and investing the time and energy required to realize it. As we navigate complex systems across various sectors, embracing the challenge of systems change can lead to meaningful and sustainable transformation.
 
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
The Nature of Systems Change: Understanding that systems are complex and often resistant to change, requiring a nuanced approach to provoke transformation.
The Importance of Time: Recognizing that meaningful systems change typically takes at least three years, challenging the desire for quick wins and highlighting the need for long-term commitment.
Energy Dynamics in Systems: Exploring how the flow of information and attention affects change efforts, and how misdirection can stall progress.
Collaboration Across Stakeholders: The necessity of fostering collaboration among all participants—whether in education, healthcare, or corporate environments—to create a shared vision for change.
Provocation as a Tool for Change: Learning how to challenge existing norms and behaviors within a system without blaming individuals, thereby encouraging open dialogue and reflection.
Practical Examples and Insights: Gaining insights from real-world examples, such as the education system, to illustrate how systemic issues can perpetuate negative outcomes and the strategies needed to address them.
 
Quick Reference Guide:
0:14 - Meet Luke
2:40 - An example of change at a system level - bullying in schools
5:50 - Helpful frameworks - mapping and metaphors
9:06 - Why training individuals is not a long-term solution
14:00 - The window of change
18:13 - 5 reasons to use the Rosenverse
20:28 -  Provoking systems
24:58 - Flow of energy
28:49 - Luke’s gift for listeners 
 
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Advancing Service Design - December 3-4, 2024 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-service-design/
The Grasshopper: Games, Life, and Utopia by Bernard Suits https://www.amazon.com/Grasshopper-Third-Games-Life-Utopia/dp/1554812151/
Leading Schools and Sustaining Innovation by Luke Roberts https://www.amazon.com/Leading-Schools-Sustaining-Innovation-Roberts/dp/1032015624/
 
Quotes:
“Systems get into rituals and routines that normalize types of behavior. And so you need to provoke them in some way to see what they're capable of doing differently.”
“Systems are very good at dehumanizing.”
“Training an individual is the fastest route to failure because either that individual gets a new thing that they have to deal with, or that individual leave eventually. For leaders to take a more systemic view of things, it's about really saying, how do we make sure the things that we value most are sustained over time?”
“Systems are very good at being resilient.”
“You have to have empathy for the individual, but you can have frustration with the system.”

Rewriting the Rules through Organizational Development with Amanda Woolley

“I’ve been asking myself the question, ‘Why are you doing that?’ since I was about four,” says Amanda Woolley. As an organizational development (OD) consultant and facilitator, she seems to have found the right profession. Amanda began her career with NHS England, eventually becoming the System Leadership Development Senior Manager before working as a consultant. Ironically, she initially rejected the notion that she was an “OD person,” not being entirely sure what the requirements were.
In Lou and Amanda’s discussion, she reflects on her journey into OD. She explains that OD focuses on helping teams step back and evaluate how they work together, addressing the complexities and “weirdness” that can emerge in workplace dynamics. They discuss the ideal environment for creating effective change in an organization, emphasizing the importance of neutrality, creativity, and ownership. 
Amanda shares a personal story about being a caregiver at a young age for her ill mother.  She reflects, “My best experiences in healthcare are when people have broken the rules.” Today, she brings stakeholders together so that procedures can be rewritten to make protocols efficient and effective for all involved—and she’ll bring her experience and OD perspective to her panel at Advancing Service Design 2024 (virtual, December 3-4). 
 
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
The purpose of Organizational Development and who typically does it
Common “weird” challenges organizations face
When and why organizations should bring in consultants, like OD specialists, to provide a neutral perspective and facilitate better communication and problem-solving
Amanda’s career path and the rich experiences that inform her work today
 
Quick Reference Guide:
0:14 - Meet Amanda
1:50 - Systems and organizational development share a focus on frameworks and language
5:08 - What is and who does organizational development?
6:24 - Being aware of what’s weird and doing something about it
9:43 - The triggers that expose the need for an organizational development specialist
14:21 - Creating space that invites change and creativity
17:15 - 5 things about the Rosenverse 
19:53 - How Amanda’s experience with the National Health Services in the UK has influenced her work today
27:27 - Amanda’s gift for listeners
 
Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Advancing Service Design Conference - December 3-4, 2024 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/advancing-service-design/
Tomorrowmind: Thriving at Work with Resilience, Creativity, and Connection―Now and in an Uncertain Future by Martin Seligman and Gabriella Rosen Kellerman https://www.amazon.com/Tomorrowmind-Resilience-Creativity-Connection_Now-Uncertain/dp/1982159766
 
Quotes:
“I often talk about when things get weird because people are weird.”  
“If what you’re after is that thing, I’m really confused about why you’re doing that [other] thing.”
“I think there are just some people – and I'm one of them – that goes, no, I refuse to go to a meeting that was a waste of time or was unclear about what we were trying to get out of it.”
“My best experiences in healthcare are when people have broken the rules.”  
“That’s not really the process, but we can see it’s the right thing.”  
“The norm has been for it to not be designed. [The process] just kind of emerged.”
“What is the journey of somebody experiencing a need and getting the help that we have to offer, and how can we think more systemically about that, and more holistically about that?”
“The people who are working in these services know the answers. The wisdom is in that system about what is working and what isn't. And if we could just help the communication between those different people, then amazing things will happen.”